Podcast: Elite athletes and bioelectronics, with Brynmor Williams

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Listen to the full episode here

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Brynmor Williams is a Welsh dual-code international rugby union and professional rugby league player. He played representative level rugby union (RU) for British Lions and Wales, at invitational level for Barbarian F.C., and at club level for Cardiff RFC, Newport RFC and Swansea RFC, as a Scrum-half, i.e. number 9, and representative level rugby league (RL) for Wales, and at club level for Cardiff City (Bridgend) Blue Dragons, as a scrum-half. In the episode, Bryn tells us how treatment on the the physiotherapy table has changed since he took to the field and opens up on how both those in his generation and modern athletes now uses bioelectronics to recover, relieve pain and reduce inflammation.

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“I can see that technology has moved on in all areas of life, whether it's medicine, whether it's training, or whatever the case may be. And I feel I've got up-to-date stuff now, I've got this NuroKor... in fact, I've had a session this morning, and my hands are moving a lot better as a result. It doesn't solve my problem, but it's certainly improving my situation.” -Byrnmor Williams

"Any equipment, any technology, anything, which is enhancing recovery, and not only recovery for them to play the next game. But recovery by way of getting them prepared for the next 40 years. Because when you hit 30 playing professional sport, it's the next 30 years that matter, not the 30 years that have just gone."

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About NuroKor

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Founded in 2018, NuroKor is a company committed to the development of bioelectronic technologies. NuroKor develops and formulates programmable bioelectronic software for clinical and therapeutic applications, in a range of easy to use, wearable devices. It provides the highest-quality products, delivering personalised pain relief and recovery support and rehabilitation to patients.

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Transcript

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Rick Rowan:
Welcome to the bioelectronics podcast by NuroKor. I'm your host, Rick Rowan. And this is where we can hear about how bioelectronics is changing healthcare, and providing benefits to both patients and healthcare systems worldwide.

Rick Rowan:
Welcome to the bioelectronics podcast I'm Rick Rowan, your hosts. This week, I am joined by Dr. James Somauroo, as usual, and ex rugby player, Brynmor Williams, a rugby legend. I'll let him do his own intro, so I don't embarrass myself. Welcome both.

Brynmor Williams:
Hi.

James Somauroo:
Hi Rick.

Rick Rowan:
Bryn, could you give our listeners some information around your background?

Brynmor Williams:
Yeah, thank you for the welcome, and thank you for calling me a legend. I owe you a drink one day, when we eventually meet each other.

Brynmor Williams:
My background is, I played rugby for Cardiff and Swansea, which are two big cities in South Wales, as you know, and then I went on to play for Wales in the '70s. I played for the British Lions in New Zealand in '77. We toured New Zealand for three and a half months. It was the old fashioned Lions tours; we left on May the 4th, and came back on August the 27th. We played 25 games, not like the last Lions tour, they played, I think, eight or nine games if I remember correctly, an entirely different complexion on things in those days. It was amateur, of course, because international rugby was not professional in those days.

Brynmor Williams:
I played till I was about 33, played rugby league for Cardiff City Blue Dragons, that's a rugby league team that originated around the football club, which was Cardiff City, as is still the case. I played against Australia for the Welsh Rugby League International side as well. And so lovely experiences then, about 13 years at the top, if you like, I don't mean that to sound arrogant, but I had 13 years of playing top class sport. Had lots of injuries along the way.

Brynmor Williams:
I also did some high-jumping for Wales back in the... when I was about 19, 20. I was quite a reasonable high-jumper, I don't know where that came from, because I'm not terribly tall. So, I'm referring to the high-jump, because as I said, we used to jump into sand pits in those days, and some of my injuries, my consultants, or my orthopedic surgeons over the years, have told me, it may have come from that. Nowadays they jump into crash mats, and airbags and things, but in those days, we were jumping into wet sand pits. That really hasn't had a good impact on my body.

Brynmor Williams:
I live in Cowbridge, just outside South Wales. I'm married, I've got four kids, and my two sons are professional rugby players as well. Lloyd plays for Cardiff Blue, and he's played for Wales, and the Barbarians, played in the World Cup in 2011 and 2015. My son, Tom plays his rugby in Jersey at the moment, in the English championship. He's had two very serious shoulder operations. He's played for the Welsh seven-a-side team as well.

Brynmor Williams:
So we were rugby mad in this family. My two daughters and my wife, they say they love the sport, but I'm not quite sure now, from all these injuries they've had to see. But anyway, that's a bit of a snapshot. I was paid, when I played rugby league of course, because that's a professional sport, not rugby union. And I was a PE teacher for nearly three years. And then when the rugby takes off in those days, you'd have lots of opportunities to get into business. And I went into business and I've been a director of a company called Thomas Carroll for the last 14 years. I'm now 68. I'm still working three to four days a week and sort of enjoying it.

Brynmor Williams:
I worked for the BBC for many years as a second voice, if you like, not a commentator, but a second voice. And worked for S4C, because I'm a fluent Welsh speaker. So a lot of serious attachment to sport, not only my playing days, but also after I finished playing. So yeah, I'm sort of wrapped up in it a bit, and rugby's been good to me, despite the injuries. Because I've probably done reasonably well in business and enjoy my boys playing, et cetera. So I can only appreciate the time, although I've got a few aches and pains now as a result, but I'd do it all over again if I had the choice.

James Somauroo:
Good for you. And I suppose if I can jump in, obviously with such a passion for sports and, I guess, a career and a hobby and everything else that sport is to you, obviously you want to keep it going for as long as possible. And with something as high contact as rugby union, rugby league, you're obviously going to get injuries over that time, which you mentioned, and your son's shoulder injury and various things that you've obviously gone through in that time.

James Somauroo:
How do you cope with injury as you go through your career? Is it something that you sort of accept of like, "Oh, we're going to have to have time out." Did they do as much prevention in those days as they do these days and things like that? What's your relationship with injury and recovery?

Brynmor Williams:
Well, interesting question, because I sort of envy my two boys now, and the knowledge and the expertise that's around now to deal with their problems. Like all rugby players, footballers, the knowledge has become so advanced compared to the days I played. I mean, if you had a shoulder dislocation back in the '70s, or you had a cartilage problem, they just took the cartilage out, a bit more trimming. They just took it out, and you were stuck without the cartilage.

Brynmor Williams:
Luckily that didn't happen to me. Although I have had two half-new knee replacements, if that makes sense. So I took out my cartilage in both knees, and that was about five years ago. That came about because of weight training. I was an obsessive weight trainer, both in my playing days and afterwards, power training and this type of thing, not bodybuilding, just fitness. And the pressure of lifting, through the knees, of course, eventually took its toll on the joints, and that's why that problem developed for me, which I had resolved. And it's been great ever since.

Brynmor Williams:
The boys though, seem to have the best of attention, the best medical advice, the best consultants available in sport. And it's all free, they go private immediately. But you do, you accept it, it is part of the baggage with, certainly, contact sport like rugby. You've just got to accept it. And I think I said at the beginning of my long winded introduction, I'm sorry, I said I'd do it all over again, and I probably would, because I made some great friends out of this sport, had some great times. And I traveled the world because of rugby, and that's something that doesn't come along to too many people.

Brynmor Williams:
But yeah, the injuries just came along and you did your bit in recovering from them. In the days, if you had a bang on the leg, you'd put some ice on it, and within two days they'd tell you, "We'll run it off." And you'd be doing things like that. But of course, nowadays, it's a different kettle of fish; because it's professional, the pressure to get these players back by way of as early as possible, is understandable, but they don't want them back unless they're a 100% right.

Brynmor Williams:
I'm not saying [crosstalk 00:07:01] the differences I'm seeing now, and my two boys, they've both had quite serious injuries, but they're both well. But Tom is the one that's had really, really bad shoulder operations, and they've taken a long time to recover. But he's still playing, he's got another year of his contract at the Jersey Reds, which is the championship team playing out of Jersey. And he's been home with us recently, because of the COVID-19 thing, but he's going back on Thursday. He's got a job coaching the ladies team out there, and his [crosstalk 00:07:26], that's in September. So we've got three seasons to think about as well.

Brynmor Williams:
But yeah, I think you just accept it, that you're going to get bangs. I think you work much harder to try and strengthen now, because it's professional, they've got all day to build up their bodies, to withstand the contact side of things. Again, going back to the comparisons that you're currently drawing with my days, and nowadays, of course I was keeping a job done at the time, and you trained most evenings on your own or you trained at the peak times with your club.

James Somauroo:
It's interesting, isn't it, as the general population gets fitter, and we all play more sport, we all become more athletic, I think there's so many people that have had similar issues, without... Similar I suppose to when you were playing, without that kind of attention from the top medical advice, and the top medical devices, and the brand new innovations. And I think it's a similar thing, I suppose, to a lot of the general population; you might play football or rugby three times a week for your local team, and you pick up those knocks, but you don't get them fully rehabbed, you don't have them fully physio'd, and I think it is meaning that as people are getting older, they're suffering from a lot more of those aches and pains that you alluded to in your intro as well.

James Somauroo:
And there is so much innovation out there, and there is access to the information. There are the best ways to physio and rehab, but it sounds like often, people don't get. And you mentioned that you're 68 now, and there probably are a few aches and pains and all the rest of it, but it's funny how both groups still need access to that innovation. We all, whether you're young, or old, or professional or not, we all kind of need that. And, my question is; what are the sorts of things that you're looking at now, or see that your sons use, and all those things, what do you see that are the most innovative things about recovery at the moment?

Brynmor Williams:
Well, it's a very interesting point you've raised, because I've drawn the comparisons between my experience in the seventies, although amateur, I still had the best of attention from the best orthopedic surgeon.

Rick Rowan:
Yeah, fair.

Brynmor Williams:
My boys have that as well, but you're actually spot on to raise the point, that the general public don't have any of that, of course. To go to see a physiotherapist these days, is near on 60 quid.

Rick Rowan:
That's it, 60 quid you don't have, yeah, exactly.

Brynmor Williams:
Absolutely right. I mean, it's quite interesting, what's happened to me in the last 18 months, I've got these trigger finger problems, and it was only chatting to the Ieuan Evans, you may know Ieuan? Of course, he's a famous rugby player himself. And I think he's involved with NuroKor where, I think he's a stakeholder in the business? And I knew Mark Hopkins, who's a friend, played golf with him. And I'd heard of this equipment, but I hadn't seen it. And I started saying how I was struggling hands wise, and my fingers, and everything else.

Brynmor Williams:
And I'd tried everything, from bathing them in hot water in the mornings, to a hot water bottle, to these seed bags you can heat up in the microwave, everything, [inaudible 00:10:32]. I wasn't having any joy at all. I'd had an operation on two fingers, which are pain free now, but I'll never be able to straighten them again. And another three fingers are struggling in the same way.

Brynmor Williams:
My son had the shoulder operation, and he had a bit of... I can't remember, I think it was TENS it was called, which is nerve stimulation, which is [inaudible 00:10:53] to get things moving around the shoulder, which helped him recover. That's about the only super-technical thing I've seen, if it is super-technical, James.

Brynmor Williams:
Chatting to Ieuan, and chatting to Mark about my hands, and they said, "Well, you've got to try NuroKor." And as I know Marnie knows, you may know this James by now, Rick probably does as well. I eventually had the gloves for a couple of weeks just to see how they work, but I found a vast improvement, which culminated in me actually buying them, because I want them on a permanent basis; not only to help me with my hands, but also to help me if I have any... I get stiff shoulders sometimes, my knees play up and things like this. I haven't used NuroKor for that yet, but I'm glad I've got the equipment to hand, because I can see myself as I get older again, wanting to turn to something like that, to try and get everything working and to try and reduce inflammation and what have you.

Brynmor Williams:
But again, as I told Marnie not so long ago, and I told Mark Hopkins, I've seen a vast improvement in wearing the gloves, it's the gloves that I've been putting on. And the only time I've come across this sort of equipment, is seeing ice boots and things like this with the boys, I can see that technology has moved on in all areas of life, whether it's medicine, whether it's training, or whatever the case may be. And I feel I've got up-to-date stuff now, I've got this NuroKor, which is why we're talking, I know, but it's working [crosstalk 00:12:26]. But I wouldn't want to bullshit you in any way, just for the sake of it, but it does work for me.

Brynmor Williams:
James has helped me a lot, and in fact, I've had a session this morning, and my hands are moving a lot better as a result. It doesn't solve my problem, but it's certainly improving my situation.

Rick Rowan:
Yeah. Bryn, you mentioned you had surgery on a couple of times previously?

Brynmor Williams:
Yes I have.

Rick Rowan:
Would you consider that again? Or what ended up being the net result of that? I know it can be successful for some, but for others it's marginal, it just depends on the individual of course, as does any treatment.

Brynmor Williams:
Yeah. Well, again, it's a really interesting question, because I'm now weight training, although I'm getting on a bit, but I've always weight trained, and my legs have always been pretty strong. And the orthopedic surgeon, the expert people think, "Oh, you played rugby, that's why your knees have gone." Anyway, my legs were strong, and I had them done simultaneously, which was either brave or foolish, or a bit of both I suspect. But I've had five years of problems with my knees, if not a bit longer, when I'd go in and have an arthroscopy, where they'd chip off of the loose cartilage which was causing inflammation. And I'd be okay for eight or nine months, then I'd go back and have it done again.

Brynmor Williams:
But in the end, I had to look at more serious surgery. So the orthopedic surgeon invited me into the hospital to have a chat with him about what they were going to do, and there's enough cartilage on one part of the knee, and that applies to both legs, and they wanted to put some titanium into the other section of the knee. And I went in, and I had the operation. I was in hospital for 12 days, because part of the problem, I didn't have a leg to stand on, so they had to get me back on my feet before I could leave hospital. But because I kept my legs strong, touch wood, I've never had a problem since with my knees.

Brynmor Williams:
I'm still playing a lot of golf. I've got an exercise bike up in... this sort of little mini gym in my attic, which I work quite regularly on. I've had no trouble at all with my knees, but that's how it happened, I did get my legs really strong in order to deal with the operation. And then when I had the op, my recovery obviously took about two or three months, because it was quite a big traumatic surgery, but after that, I've been well ever since. I can't run and things, I mean, I can run, but I can't run for long, he wouldn't recommend that I run because my knees... I've got metal in them. But I walk briskly, I walk properly without pain.

Brynmor Williams:
They used to call me the broken down cowboy, before I had this done, because I was trying to walk on the outside of my knees that it was a bit of a laughingstock, but in an affectionate way sort of thing, but I've been great ever since. But other injury, I've had a major operation on my ankle, which again, was a long time ago, but that's been fine, touch wood. Peculiarly enough, my main problems have been my hands, but I played scrum half, and in those days, the days that I played, there was a lot more of what's called dive passing, I don't know how familiar you are with rugby? A lot of dive passing, where there was erratic possession for line-outs and things, where sometimes, the number nine in the team had to do a fall weight pass, where you're actually throwing your body in the direction of the pass.

Brynmor Williams:
But that meant you landed on your hands, and splayed your fingers, and it's that sort of wear and tear, the high jump I mentioned to you as well, landing into hard sand pits, took its toll. And that's what the gentleman that's been looking after me, went angry, he tells me that's why I've got these problems, is serious wear and tear, asking far more of the hands than any normal person would. And I'm paying the price now. And it's quite daunting. They're painful in the mornings. And as I said, I put my gloves on, and it's helped me a great deal.

Brynmor Williams:
So, that's my compendiums of injury problems; they've all been pretty big, but I'm still playing golf, and I'm still able to do a bit of gardening, I'm still working three days a week, and I count my lucky stars. I suppose James.

Rick Rowan:
Bryn, just for personal interest, do you recall which apps or which modes you're using on your device with the gloves?

Brynmor Williams:
Yes I do. And if there was one thing I perhaps would like, and this is not in any way a complaint, just that we're just sharing with you, I think maybe it would be great to have a bit of a prescription as to what programs are best for me. But to answer the question, I tend to go in straight into improved performance, I'm on stage two. I have that for about 20 minutes, then I'll do about an hour on the MiTouches, at the MC2, which I can't [inaudible 00:17:32], currently doing me a power of good. So those are the only two things I've experimented within the five or six weeks that they've had this.

Brynmor Williams:
And I can only ask for something, is there a better way of using it? I don't know, and I'd like to know, and Mark Hopkins, who's told me these things, a good friend, I'm trying to pin Mark down, but there's a lot going on because of this coronavirus problem. So I don't like to chase him down, but I'm sure he'll get around to me soon, just to perhaps prescribe something so I know my routine. So I get up, I do this, lunchtime I do this, in the evenings or before going to bed, I do this, but at the moment I'm just self prescribing. I'm just doing, as I said, the improved performance stage two, and that gets a lot of involuntary movement going.

Brynmor Williams:
Tensing the muscles, and things like this. Then I go to faster recovery at night, that's right the MC two, the center one sort of thing, which gives me the micro-current therapy that runs through my hands, but I don't feel it.

Rick Rowan:
Oh, that's right. So the micro-current, definitely post the treatment, if you can squeeze it in twice a day, particularly in the evenings before sleeping, that certainly could be beneficial.

Brynmor Williams:
Okay. And for how long then? Would that be half an hour, or should it be an hour, or watching TV for a couple of hours? That type of thing.

Rick Rowan:
Yeah. Either way, in your case, you've most likely got some inflammation-

Brynmor Williams:
Yes.

Rick Rowan:
... from the injury. So yeah, half an hour to an hour would be good. If you're short for time, then of course, half an hour is fine, but if you've got the time, then the additional time is, in your case, certainly beneficial. Because as you mentioned, it's not going to fix anything, but it certainly should be able to help manage it-

Brynmor Williams:
Yes.

Rick Rowan:
... and manage that inflammation, which is quite often the cause of the pain.

Brynmor Williams:
That's right, it's interesting, my index finger, there's no way I can flex that totally when I wake up. So I can't clench it like in a fist formation, but once I've been on the... With the gloves on, and that's usually the improved performance stage two, I think is the one I'm referring to, I can flex it properly and it feels fine. But the following morning, I'm in a fairly similar situation. Although generally speaking, I'm much improved, having used the gloves quite regularly for the past five or six weeks.

Brynmor Williams:
And I'm still seeing the specialist next week to have a consultation, because this thing hasn't gone away, but a way of managing the problem, I could survive like this indefinitely, but I don't want to, just in case it deteriorates as I get older.

Rick Rowan:
Yes, of course. Sure. The only thing I would suggest there is, potentially, the recovery app could be beneficial, either the training one or the recovery one is going to probably provide what you need there, just different variations of stimulation, both neuromuscular and nerve.

Brynmor Williams:
Thank you, thank you.

Rick Rowan:
Yeah, with bioelectronics, or with these formulations, they're a little bit like choosing from a menu, rather than a specific treatment. And similarly to a menu it's sort of what's working, or what you're enjoying, what's feeling good.

Brynmor Williams:
Yes.

Rick Rowan:
You know, what's giving you the most relief. But certainly if you could split or add in the additional evening session of microcurrent, that certainly could be beneficial.

Brynmor Williams:
Thank you for that. I'm a bit old fashioned, because I want to feel an impact, I want to feel some tensing of the muscles. The one that you don't feel any sensation, you're not quite sure if it's doing any good.

Rick Rowan:
I can't remember if it was Mark or Ieuan, mentioned that initially your interest, or how you got introduced to our product was, you were looking for some type of treatment, or needing something during lockdown, is that correct?

Brynmor Williams:
Yeah, yeah, that's right. And just complaining that my hands were hurting. And Ieuan started chatting, and Ieuan brought the gloves over because we live 30 yards away from each other. And then Mark brought the other full package over, and talked me through how to use it. Yes, lockdown was a frustration, but you understood and respected the environment, because it's been desperate across the world, of course. But what I've had previously incidentally, just quickly, is that I used to have steroid injections, and that helped me a lot.

Brynmor Williams:
I'm going back now, 18 months, two years, when these problems started, I ended up having an operation, the two fingers, the middle finger on both hands, I had them done the same day. And I was in bandages for a couple of weeks, but I'm not in pain in those fingers, now, but they are bent, and I can still grip a golf club, but I couldn't straighten them. And then because of that, I can't have a steroid injection incidentally, that's what I'm trying to say, forgive me. Because, that diminishes the immune system. So I wasn't really looking as if I was going to get relief anywhere for months.

Brynmor Williams:
So chatting to Ieuan, and then Mark, was perfect for me, because I found out about NuroKor, and started using it of course as an experiment. It was working for me, so I eventually decided to buy it, and I'm still using it. And I'm progressing, I am much better. And with the lockdown factor, I still haven't seen a specialist, although I have got an appointment next Friday, it's a consultation and it's very cautiously done, but I feel like, and as I said to you previously, although NuroKor's helped me and the gloves are fantastic, I still need to address this going forward.

Brynmor Williams:
Because I'm not sure where I'll be in two years time, I don't want to be stopping playing golf, I want to be able to grip the steering wheel in the car, there's all sorts of things that you want to do with your hands, isn't it. It's only when you have an injury, that you realize how flipping precious they are. But yes, a lot of lockdown frustration, I think, tended to prompt the conversation, and then Ieuan shared some information on the gloves with me, and then Mark came to educate me a little bit further. And here we are, so to speak.

James Somauroo:
And Bryn, what have you noticed specifically out of interest? My background is that I'm actually in an anaesthetist, so I'm a doctor by training, and one of the things that anaesthetists do is manage pain. And it's one of the big things that we obviously research, and treat, in loads of different ways. Is it pain relief that you've found has been the biggest benefit of using this? Or have you noticed an increase in function? Or, I suppose you would, if you've got less pain, but what have you noticed most about using it?

Brynmor Williams:
Increase in function, those are the very words that I-

James Somauroo:
Okay.

Brynmor Williams:
And because there's an increase in function, the pain has been alleviated because the flexibility's come back, and I understand that the gloves, or the equipment actually, suppresses the inflammation, which seems to make things pretty good, but as I said, once a few hours have gone by, I am much improved, but the problem is still there, Rick, and a lot of frustration. Not that I'm expecting the gloves (KorGlovs) to solve my problem entirely, but they make my day far more comfortable, and more tolerable. And that's why I will always put them on in the mornings. And I find that I'm much better for it.

Brynmor Williams:
But it's the flexibility is the improved... The hands work far better, whereas without using them, I can't flex my index finger. My ring finger on my righthand side, I tend to wear a ring on it, but not at the moment because it swells up a little bit sometimes, and those are the two really troublesome fingers at the moment. But the gloves have helped me big time.

Brynmor Williams:
I was going to ask the question; if I use them for three months, will it solve my problem? Or perhaps it won't quite do that because there are too many problems in the joints themselves, but it does improve things, and I'm a far more cheerful person. If I'm a little bit sort of grumpy in the house, Jane says, "Put those bloody gloves on."

James Somauroo:
And Rick, from your perspective, what do you think is happening there? What's the hypothesis or working theory as to what's happening there? Because obviously, Bryn's feeling specific benefit from the micro-current, clearly, from what he's saying. So what do you think is happening? Because, for people that don't know, trigger finger is where the tendon is shortening, and your finger is held in a flexed position rather than being able to straighten it. And so there's obviously a lot of, I guess, hardening of the tendon and things like that, which Bryn's obviously seeing some relief. So what do you think is happening there?

Rick Rowan:
Yes, the most common... obviously not being a doctor myself, and-

James Somauroo:
You always caveat that every single episode. Fair enough. I'm not going to shout at you, if you say that to me, it's all right.

Rick Rowan:
That's okay. I can't remember if the lawyers told me to do that or not. But with regards to trigger finger, having researched it, common treatments are things like rest, or avoiding certain activities, and nonsteroidal anti inflammatories, et cetera. So that indicates to me that primarily, there's an inflammation process at play, which then causes pain. And as Bryn mentioned there, sometimes swelling, and these are a circular issue, as in, the inflammation or swelling causes a reduction in circulation, which causes more inflammation.

Rick Rowan:
So there's a few things that are happening. One, Bryn mentioned that he has a liking for the stimulatory side of it, which is helping to physically stimulate the muscle and tissue, or surrounding tissue, so that improves circulation. The nerve stimulatory formulations within that will help to manage the pain, so that the actual pain sensation, which allows Bryn to then, of course have movement without as much pain.

Rick Rowan:
And then you've got the microcurrent, which is working to reduce that inflammation and to help the body manage, or get on top of this inflammation or damage process. So it can't fix it, and I wouldn't dare say that it can, but what you're trying to do, and it looks from other treatments suggested, is you're trying to get in front of that inflammation so that it becomes manageable, and quality of life improves. And as Bryn has found, it has been doing that for him, perhaps with a little bit of tweaking of the treatment, we can help him get in front of that even a little bit more. And so that it becomes an even better outcome, but certainly without claiming that it's going to fix it, but it's not about fixing it, surgery's already been tried for that? And it's not really an issue that has been deemed to be fixable. I mean, no offense Bryn, but given-

Brynmor Williams:
No.

Rick Rowan:
... your age, and probably the fact that you're in good physical condition is helping, because there's probably others who wouldn't fare so well. But I think that there's further room for further improvement using the technology, and what's available now, obviously this product that Bryn has is not optimized specifically for this app; it's quite broad spectrum, but certainly capable of even further improvement from what he's already having.

James Somauroo:
And Bryn, I suppose last question from me then would be; how do you see the athletes now in terms of the new innovations that they're part of? Do you see them using things like this in future? Do you think that's going to be something that they do? I know lots of athletes do use bioelectronics and things like that, but obviously with your sons, and looking at what they go through with their recovery and rehab, do you think there's a place for this? As a technology in elite sport, a bit more generally?

Brynmor Williams:
Yeah. Well, it's interesting, but the only evidence I've got, is the way that NuroKor's helped me by the [crosstalk 00:30:19]. The boys visit from time to time, and they are pretty interested in it. Although, I think they've had similar things. I mentioned TENS, is that a familiar term to you? I think it is James. And Rick, maybe TENS... it's very similar, where the pads are put on the shoulder and this sort of... and my son, Tom, had a desperately bad nerve injury in the shoulder, I'm going back about two years. And he used what was available to him at the time.

Brynmor Williams:
And he came on a bomb, because of the use of that sort of technology, which I think is in the same family as NuroKor, or maybe a different business, of course? But I see it, and it's interesting, I'm just telling the two boys recently, and rugby's been everything to them; they've made a good living out of it. But I tell them, "Look, don't forget, post rugby there's skiing," which they enjoy, there's surfing, which they enjoy, there's golf, which they enjoy. "Sport doesn't come to an end at the end of your rugby career, if anything, it starts far more exciting adventures, and you need to be in one piece in order to enjoy those."

Brynmor Williams:
So any equipment, any technology, any, anything, which is enhancing recovery, and not only recovery for them to play the next game, but recovery by way of getting them prepared for the next 40 years, because when you hit 30 playing professional sport, it's the next 30 years that matter, not the 30 years that've just gone.

Brynmor Williams:
So, I see them, a bit of excitement and joy, with the improvement I've seen. I hope this sort of equipment is available to everybody, because it has a part to play, and I'm an old crock. But seriously, my hands look pretty normal, by the way, just in case you've got this image in your mind that [inaudible 00:32:07]. Because, they look okay, and that frustration is, "Well, they look all right, why are they so damn painful though?"

Brynmor Williams:
And yes, to answer your question, sorry... I'm Welsh, you see, I'm a Welsh speaker, and we tend to take ages to answer one question, so forgive me for that. But yes, I do see all sorts of advantages to using this sort of equipment with athletes, and I know that I'm talking rugby, but there's athletics, there's... well, all sorts of sports, isn't there? Football, tennis, everything, anything that enhances recovery and makes the body secure and well longterm. And I do emphasize the long term.

Brynmor Williams:
The danger sometimes I see with the boys is, that they get them ready in about three weeks and they seem to be fully healed, but maybe they need to have three contact sessions before they play, but they're straight into a game. And certainly, I think that in some ways, jeopardizes full recovery, because too much is asked too early, but that's life in professional sport, I suppose.

James Somauroo:
I think you're right. And I think even from my position, I play tennis three, four, sometimes five or seven times a week, depending on how busy I am, but it's true. I pick up niggles and stuff now, and there are things that I could have sorted a bit earlier, a few years ago, that I might have rested a bit more, or that I might have rehabbed properly, and they're starting to creep up with me now. When I think from your perspective, obviously as an international rugby player, and even my perspective, and everybody else listening's perspective, who might play sport a few times a week because they enjoy it; they're still going pretty hard for them.

James Somauroo:
You don't have to be an international athlete to require these things, and whether it's bioelectronics, or whether it's just resting properly, or whether it's using a Bosu ball or whether it's any sort of training that helps you look after yourself, I think it's all just extremely important. Because we don't want to be getting to 80, 90 years old in pain. And I think the main thing that I've learned on this, is to think about the future and everything that you're doing. Because I'm sure in 20 years time I'll look back at what I said now and think, "I should have rested that ankle a bit more. I probably should've put some pads on and had some micro-current going through it," something like that.

James Somauroo:
So I think for those people listening, I think that's probably the most important thing. I don't know if you have any final thoughts, Rick?

Rick Rowan:
No, but Bryn, it's been wonderful chatting and sharing your life story and achievements, and giving our audience an insight into what some of the... I don't know if complications is the right word, but some of the challenges of trigger finger. Because I don't think it's actually that well a known physiological issue.

Brynmor Williams:
I think it's not talked about a lot, because it's generally accepted, or the chap who's got it, trigger finger's only when you come across another person with the same problem, that you start chatting about it. Because if I complain to my friends, "Oh, I've got trigger finger," "What's that?" But then again, because I'm telling the doctor, and I've got three or four fingers with problems, they say it is very common. In fact, I saw an article in the paper yesterday about an operation on the hand, and you may know far more about this than I do, but it's adrenaline being injected into the hand, so you don't have to have the tourniquet, [inaudible 00:35:29] and then they can operate a bit more freely without...

Brynmor Williams:
Because the operations I've had with the two hands, the tourniquet was desperate, you almost couldn't wait for them to finish, because the pain in the arm was greater than anything else. But I read that yesterday because I'm interested in it. Talking to you, I'm interested in the subject, we're talking about the gloves and NuroKor, and the advantages I've gained from buying the equipment. But I'm still looking to hopefully resolve this entirely if there's something out there.

Brynmor Williams:
And surgery doesn't always excite me, because I'm left with two flexed fingers, I can't straighten them. So when I wave at somebody in the car, I don't know if I'm clenching a fist, or if I'm actually raising a hand, I'm not quite sure what impression that leaves on people, but there we are. Sorry, here I go again.

Rick Rowan:
No, that's entirely fine. It's been great chatting, and I think there's been a lot of insight here for listeners on a number of levels. And certainly, even from my perspective, understanding how you're using it, and what impact it's had, has been very insightful.

Brynmor Williams:
Great. Thank you both. Thank you both.

Rick Rowan:
Hi everyone. Thanks for listening to the bioelectronics podcast by NuroKor, to making it to the end of this episode. If you enjoyed it, remember to subscribe, rate us, and leave a review; we'd much appreciate it.

Rick Rowan:
And you can head to the description of this episode to follow us on all of our socials, so you don't miss out on any of the latest bioelectronic content.

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